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carlgreene 6 hours ago [-]
Hedonic adaptation really is something. I have been deeply trying to appreciate these modern marvels more and more, but it's hard.
A hot shower, air almost 50 degrees cooler than the outside air coming out of my vents, communicating instantly thousands of miles away, it's all so easy to just forget and take for granted
xnx 6 hours ago [-]
We need a Netflix Chaos Monkey tool for modern life. Each week one modern convenience stops working for a day: indoor plumbing, air conditioning, electricity, wifi, automobile, air travel etc. after one day without, you will again appreciate those things for the next few years
abroadwin 6 hours ago [-]
Can confirm. As someone living on well water in an area with semi-frequent power outages in winter I have periodically been given renewed appreciation for the value of power, central heat and running water.
Now I have a great standby generator, though, so I'm sure I'll start taking it all for granted again soon.
PaulHoule 5 hours ago [-]
I live in an 1850s farm house with a spring up the hill and a backup well with a pump for those Augusts where the trees pull all the water out of the ground (not quite this one!) Our main heating system is two wood stoves with a small propane heater as a backup.
The power goes out a lot in the winter but at least we are cozy, particularly with today's LED/Lithium lights.
Back when I had ADSL from the central office my internet would stay up when I lost power so I had enough power to run a cordless phone and one (of two) DSL modems off a small UPS -- so I could keep 21st century comms. Once I got fiber-to-the-node most outages would affect the node so I gave up on the UPS. They're supposed to get FTTH to my house soon but I have no idea how that is going to be affected by outages.
The_Fox 3 hours ago [-]
I also used to be affected by node outages on a cable network, but now I have Starlink and as long as I can generate some power, I can be online. I wouldn't go back; you might consider it.
toast0 3 hours ago [-]
> As someone living on well water in an area with semi-frequent power outages in winter
After a few of these outages and typically two to three nines of utility power availability, I got a portable generator for my well (we have an automatic generator for the house, but the well is on a separate meter); but we've also had a well pump fail. That was "fun", I think the well company came out the next day to troubleshoot, and then the 3rd day to replace the pump, which took pretty much all day because of the depth of the well. At least it happened during good weather.
skinfaxi 8 minutes ago [-]
Go camping every so often if you can.
techblueberry 5 hours ago [-]
I don’t know if I’m just weird, but my reaction is usually the opposite.
When the power goes out, and you’re forced to sit and talk to people or just enjoy the quiet of the night. I think about how much we’ve lost in the modern rat race.
One of the things that sits with me is that for all we’ve been given, most of us have lost the ability to just sit out in a field and enjoy the stars (light pollution, starlink, etc)
idiotsecant 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah, OK but this is clearly romanticizing away the fact that you are deeply dependent on these services. See how long you can just sit and enjoy the stars when your indoor plumbing and refrigeration goes away, and more importantly when your neighbors go away, not to mention the billions of little moving parts that must operate flawlessly for something like the global supply chain that brings you those shorts you wear and that tea you drink sitting in the grass and staring at the sky.
I'm not trying to single you out but I am intensely annoyed by the light and airy disregard of an intensely complex graph of interconnected services that make life possible at the density and quality that we enjoy.
We've lost a great deal less than we've gained, and anyone who doesn't think so has not had the joy of involuntarily going without them for a significant length of time.
techblueberry 4 hours ago [-]
Fair enough, but I do think there are diminishing returns beyond the basics, and there’s a hierarchy.
We are very fortunate to have clean water and sewage. There are terrible stories in Victorian England of like workers popping in water systems and killing hundreds of people.
Electricity powers a ton of basics and maybe you think you could do without heating and air conditioning until a heat wave passes over Europe and kills hundreds of people. I do think beyond that you start to deal in a lot of tradeoffs. I hate they seemed to have systematically replaced wood burning fireplaces with gas. I moved out of a house with a wood burning fireplace and what a mistake,
Except automated bill pay. I swear I could go back and live in the 70’s if it wasn’t for automated bill pay.
greytape 6 hours ago [-]
This is called: "going camping".
xg15 5 hours ago [-]
Or "living in an apartment with affordable rent"...
smallmancontrov 4 hours ago [-]
> affordable
That's the crux, isn't it? You aren't just dependent, you are dependent on a system that relentlessly stalks you with increased demands. You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves.
It's grim and people are correct to behave like it's grim.
xg15 4 hours ago [-]
I think you need better companions.
smallmancontrov 4 hours ago [-]
The electorate is what it is, but yes, I hope we can change the currently prevailing attitude.
palmotea 1 hours ago [-]
Or his companions need to get better. I interpreted...
>> You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves.
...as referring to software engineers as a whole, because it fits.
We're laborers, but a significant fraction of us has misinterpreted having a comfortable salary now as being capitalists themselves, so bought into libertarian propaganda and behave like they're temporarily embarrassed billionaires (for instance, by strongly resisting things like unionization).
Unfortunately, too many of us who are actually interested in "[doing] something about this on a systemic level," are too pampered to have the focus to actually be effective, and get distracted and put all kinds of divisive stuff front-and-center (basically playing into the divide-and-conquer game of the bosses).
gumby 2 hours ago [-]
Good idea. We did have one a few years ago: the Covid pandemic. Societies around the world did not handle it well, or worse, many of those that did spawned smaller chaos monkeys.
MarkusQ 5 hours ago [-]
If our education system, hiring processes, onboarding/skill transfer support, career development pipelines and similar systems continue to degrade, we should have something like what you're asking for before too much longer.
karmakurtisaani 5 hours ago [-]
We'll have vibe-designed houses, sewer systems, electronics and the like. Cheap, and almost work 85% of the time!
xnx 4 hours ago [-]
Plants crave Brawndo.
jancsika 2 hours ago [-]
If you don't mind vectorizing these then they already exist and are called power outages.
I just attended a 9,000-person medieval camping event, where most camps are lit with individual solar power. The only power grid usage by most of us was that site water was pumped by electricity. Due to high mineral content, few of us drink straight from the tap, and every camp has stored water, soft drinks, and so on.
The entire county lost power for about 8 hours. From the social media posts, you would have thought people were undergoing severe hardship, because they had to wait 1/3 of a day for their propane-heated showers. Also, some were angry that the county hadn't done more to plan for these situations... which happen maybe once every decade or so.
tshaddox 3 hours ago [-]
Hedonic adaptation is a very good thing. Culture or technological stasis is a death sentence for civilization. Open-ended progress is the only chance civilization has to survive (and even that's not a guarantee).
There is an infinite sequence of future problems to be solved. Each time you solve a problem, you don't reduce the total number of future problems, but you are left with one or more better problems than you had before. It's a very good thing that, as soon as you get accustomed to having air conditioning, you start looking for the next problem to fix.
jjice 2 hours ago [-]
I've never thought about hedonic adaptation as a positive, but that's a good point that it has some real value in the case of societal adaptations and driving further innovation. We usually view it through the lens of an individual over-adapting to niceties that end up being a drain on their lives long term somehow.
fcarraldo 2 hours ago [-]
We are solving problems, but we're also creating more problems with those solutions. Greenhouse gases, global warming, oil spills, wars over resources, straining power grids, species extinction, worsening mental health, worsening social cohesion, widening inequality. All are the result of technological progress within our systems of government.
Hedonic adaptation prevents us from asking "is this worth the downsides, or should we go back to how it was?"
tshaddox 2 hours ago [-]
It's possible to mistakenly think you've solved a problem when you've actually made the situation worse, of course, and that's just plainly a bad thing. It's important to be able to identify specific things which we thought were solutions but were actually new worse problems, and roll them back if possible. [0]
But that's not really what the hedonic treadmill refers to! The hedonic treadmill is referring to the fact that, when a problem is solved, the level of pleasure or happiness individuals experience reportedly quickly returns to the pre-solution baseline.
[0] Crucially, this must not be conflated with advocating a general slowdown or pause on attempts at progress. That's the civilizational death sentence.
breuleux 1 hours ago [-]
I feel that oftentimes our biggest problems come with the irresponsible scaling up of certain solutions, at which point it is usually too late to roll back because we have come to depend on them. There has to be some time between the moment we invent something great and the moment we make trillions of the thing and realize, oh, maybe that's a problem. But we don't pace ourselves. And if we keep plowing ahead heedlessly, we may very well end up burning everything and collapsing our entire civilization. It's a dangerous game to keep betting on the future without actually ever properly planning anything at all.
dachris 3 hours ago [-]
I often say that everyone should be on a misery week once a year, where you live like our "ancestors".
I.e. like my grandparents, who grew up in the 1920s on a farm, only 1 heated room, privy outside, no running water, limited food options, hard work each day. As my granny used to say to anyone with nostalgia: no, things were definitely not better back then.
Misery week would greatly increase happiness for the rest of the year, add humility, and empathy with the less privileged.
JeremyNT 3 hours ago [-]
Even just going backpacking for a few days highlights it. Despite access to some modern amenities (maybe a lighter, or a camp stove, and some food you bought and took with you) it's humbling.
Looking for water in the wilderness - even with access to maps - can be quite a challenge in and of itself!
dominotw 3 hours ago [-]
its a fun adventure because your already know that your comforts and old life are just a flight away.
but regardless it not going to bring any meaningful humbleness because you will forget all about it.
i grew up in povery for first 20 yrs of my life in a desert but i have never think of that life and experience humbless in any different way than ppl who have never experienced it.
carlosjobim 3 hours ago [-]
The hard work (and drink) makes those kind of weeks all but miserable.
dominotw 3 hours ago [-]
thats not useful because then you immedetlily forget all about it.
ericyd 24 minutes ago [-]
Not trying to shame you but...50 degrees? Do you live in Phoenix and keep your home at 60 degrees?
pizzathyme 5 hours ago [-]
It's true. The negative takeaway is that is no matter what miracles come in the far future (free energy, perfect health care, infinite resources, infinite intelligence), people will eternally be wanting, take things for granted, focused mainly on the things they don't have and can't do. It's the human condition.
techblueberry 5 hours ago [-]
I feel like in discussions about nostalgia, there can be this default presentish reaction which talks about all of the things that are better
But in the hedonic adaptation sense like - and comparisons are complicated - people aren’t by and large happier now (because of the hedonism this is sidestepping the argument of how well distributed it is, and I’m talking the past 50-100 years not compared to subsistence farming and the like early Industrial Revolution etc et al)
I do think a lot of the senses that things are better now are based on this adaptation, not thinking about would you be less happy if you didn’t know about some of the small things you were missing.
throwaway_7274 4 hours ago [-]
Maybe happiness is a different kind of thing from the pleasure/pain axis. Maybe it’s a different thing that’s tragically easy to mistake for the same thing.
I notice a lot of resistance and discomfort whenever someone says anything like this (“are you suggesting my pain doesn’t matter? How about the starving kids in xyz?”), and I get that. But it feels like there might be something to it.
> "It would seem that human beings are not able to describe, nor perhaps to imagine, happiness except in terms of contrast."
4 hours ago [-]
carlosjobim 5 hours ago [-]
Go camping
carlosjobim 3 hours ago [-]
Why did people kill the commenter who replied to me? What he wrote was my thoughts exactly.
shadow28 53 minutes ago [-]
HN can be pretty weird with +1 kind of comments.
euroderf 2 hours ago [-]
What?? It's somehow now possible to utterly eradicate a comment ?
shadow28 54 minutes ago [-]
If a comment gets flagged enough, it gets marked as "dead". There's a show dead option you can enable in your HN profile settings to still be able to see such comments though.
lezojeda 4 hours ago [-]
[dead]
keybored 5 hours ago [-]
Everyone reaches the hedonistic plateau, and fast at that. Except for people who sound like they just read a book from some neoliberal think smithy. They will have a euphoric fainting spell over the wonders of the convenience store.
Think about all those elated anecdotes about how someone used an inferior tool for a decade, was fine with it, then tried a better one and now “can’t imagine how I lived without it...” well it’s a bittersweet memory distortion innit.
3 hours ago [-]
physicles 3 hours ago [-]
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. For the last month I’ve been living in a camper van, working and traveling, which I’m really lucky to be able to do by choice. It’s lonely to be sure, but I also feel mentally far more resilient than I have in ages, and I’m trying to figure out why.
Being in nature is good for us, so that’s probably part of it, as is the constant practice of being self-reliant.
Another theory is friction. I can’t just roll out of bed to the couch, and back. I don’t have a fixed place to shower, so I swim in a river most days, and usually it’s freezing. Camping alone was terrifying at first, but objectively not that dangerous and not worth worrying about. All these little moments are a chance to exercise that mental muscle to do uncomfortable things.
Modern life is devoid of this friction. I could try to take a cold shower every day, but a not-cold one is just a turn of the wrist away. I could try to make myself go outside a bit every day, but I don’t need to.
This isn’t a new observation, but I can’t believe how stark the contrast is. I’m getting stuff done that I’ve been procrastinating on for years.
dominotw 3 hours ago [-]
but you might projecting deep purpose and meaning to your travails that you are subjecting yourself out of pure choice.
your heart knows that you can go back to comfortable modern life whenever you please so you wont really experience the pain that comes from hopelessness which i belive is really needed ingriedient to humble you.
marssaxman 5 hours ago [-]
This is an interesting premise, and I would like to read the article, but the weird scrolling makes that almost impossible; the pictures overlay the text to such an extent that I can only read a couple of lines at a time. I wish there were some browser feature that would force sites to use normal scrolling.
Aperocky 5 hours ago [-]
This is so ironically on point.
I recall reading a shampoo bottle in the bathroom maybe 25 years ago because there was nothing else to read.
Meanwhile now you are correctly complaining about how weird the scrolling feels like.
pibaker 3 hours ago [-]
This is the issue with the naive narrative of progress isn't it? Today you can sit on your toilet and read a virtually unlimited amount of text, except some text has weird scrolling, some text is interrupted by self playing video ads, some text is AI marketing slop. It's jarring that despite the undoubtedly real technological progress, we still inflict these inconveniences on ourselves, not even out of necessity.
At least I never needed JavaScript to read text on a shampoo bottle.
pimlottc 4 hours ago [-]
For me, the images and text are out of sync; by the time the focus in the image has moved to the next item, the text is already hidden under the image.
carlosjobim 5 hours ago [-]
Reader mode
pimlottc 4 hours ago [-]
Does not work in Firefox's reader mode, unfortunately
stuporglue 5 hours ago [-]
For the last year I've been on well water for the first time in my life. High iron, manganese and iron bacteria - safe, but tasted eggy and ruined shower heads, dishwashers, clothes, washing machine, kettles...
I just finished installing a whole-house filter & softener system and everyone is delighted. I told my kids that once a month we're going to serve untreated well-water with dinner, so we stay grateful for it.
euthymiclabs 5 hours ago [-]
I like this form of parenting. Make your life better for your kids, but reintroduce some challenge so that they learn to appreciate the comforts of life.
snide 5 hours ago [-]
As a fellow filtered well-water maintainer... just give it time. Even the best filtration systems break down. There are lots of moving parts to keep that water clean. Odds are you'll see or smell that brown water soon enough!
Night_Thastus 3 hours ago [-]
In a typical ion exchange setup, there isn't all that much. A big tank filled with resin to attract the minerals, and a big tank of salt to wash the resin clean.
Eventually, the resin will break down and need replacement, or the valve on the tank will fail. But neither of those are insurmountable to fix, and will tend to last many years.
Now, if you go with RO, that's different. Then you really need a pump and multiple filters which need regular changing. Those can be a bit more maintenance. (Not to mention all the wasted water)
sajithdilshan 56 minutes ago [-]
I love the animation on the website. In a world where everyone is complaining about everything, it's nice to see a post like this. Also it reminded me how grateful I should be for the comfortable life I'm living, thank you for that.
csours 49 minutes ago [-]
I can eat better than a king, every day.
incorporeal 6 hours ago [-]
I think about this stuff a lot. It's crazy how I, like, water plants with clean water that's literally on tap. Warm showers on-demand are a daily miracle.
Immediate illumination for why people don't quite feel like royalty despite all this would be achieved by replacing the aesthetic of this presentation with mis-matched uncomfortable and ugly furniture picked up off the side of the road, in a cheap split-level or ratty single wide with carpet that should have been replaced a decade ago and fucked-up window blinds et c., a kitchen table piled with a mess of homework and a pile of 20 medical bills and "EOB" letters and crap generated by a single brief visit to a hospital some of which are almost certainly in error and will take hours on the phone to correct, and so on. The presentation is upper-middle-class and comfy as hell. It's an aesthetic that my family is only slowly and haltingly and with much bargain-hunting (even Ikea is kinda spendy, IMO) struggling toward even with top-10% (for the US, let alone globally!) household income, and will never quite achieve because reality doesn't look like that. I know it's not the main point of the site, but the way they've elected to illustrate this notion is interesting in that it suggests a critique of, or elaboration on, the actual main point.
Like, I'm scrolling through this and my thoughts are on how expensive this environment is. I don't have my spices in cute well-sealing matching jars that look nice on a shelf... because that shit's expensive. Mine are mostly stale... because non-stale spices are expensive and take effort and education to track down. Hell some of mine are probably contaminated with heavy metals and I don't know it. Behind all of this is price-anxiety and ambient stress.
The core idea is sound and worth highlighting, but the reality of "so much is available extremely cheap in nearly unlimited quantity and variety! Isn't that fantastically amazing!" is exhausted parents doom-scrolling the Netflix catalog for an hour before going to bed having watched nothing, as they stress about whether their kids' dental appointment tomorrow is going to turn up anything so expensive they have to defer it and scrimp and save to pay for it.
Legend2440 3 hours ago [-]
>Mine are mostly stale... because non-stale spices are expensive and take effort and education to track down.
Not really though. The spices at the grocery store are not stale when you buy them, and will not go stale for 1-2 years once opened. If your spices are stale it's because you don't cook very often and you aren't using them up.
Also let's keep in mind that people had even less furniture in the past, and much of it you had to build yourself out of trees you cut down yourself. Healthcare was leeches and dental care was nonexistent. These "basic human rights" were incredible luxuries only a century or two ago.
goda90 4 hours ago [-]
If we could somehow start getting the upper-middle class and the upper class, and the upper-upper class to appreciate the ordinary abundance, it might cure them of the greed that drives wealth extraction at the detriment of those in lower classes. Like if everyone in the healthcare industry, from clinician to supplier to R&D to administrators, were satisfied with an ordinarily abundant life, then those medical bills wouldn't be so high in the first place. We're technologically capable of giving every human this ordinary comfort, security against crisis, and 30 hour work weeks.
MarkusQ 5 hours ago [-]
> "...doom-scrolling..."
This may be the load-bearing point of your lament.
Avicebron 5 hours ago [-]
Are you somehow blaming the parents in the commenters hypothetical?
MarkusQ 4 hours ago [-]
Not blaming, exactly.
But if the question is "why people don't quite feel like royalty despite all this" it's pretty obvious that "doom scrolling" might be a large part of the answer.
GPerson 5 hours ago [-]
I can’t imagine ever affording such a nice apartment.
arjie 5 hours ago [-]
In the US, it's pretty easy. My wife used to live in the Tenderloin for $2400/mo and her place was nicer than this because she was good at putting things together. I don't happen to have a photo of the whole studio handy, but here's the view from the window: https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/images/b/b7/Photo_-_San_Fran...
Avicebron 3 hours ago [-]
Pray tell how much she was making at the time to be able to afford 2400/month in rent?
Legend2440 3 hours ago [-]
Keep in mind that both wages and rents are higher in SF and not really comparable to the rest of the country.
Avicebron 2 hours ago [-]
I know, I'm still curious because a lot of people I knew who also lived there were making like 45k to 80k (8 years ago?) So it's relevant to say their job and how much they were making becauase they might be a rarified class among evev SF...which very much defeats the point of the original comment.
fasterik 2 hours ago [-]
$2400 a month is $29k per year, pretty affordable at the U.S. median household income of $83k. It's not uncommon for people living in big cities to spend a larger portion of their income on rent. And don't forget that many people have roommates.
4 hours ago [-]
pibaker 3 hours ago [-]
The tenderloin, famously a place where people can afford homes.
boxed 5 hours ago [-]
That's a super tiny apartment. The niceness comes from caring, not from money.
croisillon 5 hours ago [-]
the future is a nice place to be, if our bikes still had pedals we couldn't hang them at the wall after commuting
palmotea 4 hours ago [-]
> the future is a nice place to be, if our bikes still had pedals we couldn't hang them at the wall after commuting
It's not hanging, it's levitating. And modern phase-shift technology lets its handlebars sit comfortably inside the wall while still being outside of it.
Ordinary abundance.
----
I used to love pictures like that when I was a kid, someone put effort and care into every inch, so you could explore and find little treasures. Now when I see one, the thing's flimsy and falls apart on inspection.
culi 3 hours ago [-]
Also grateful for the lush houseplants that don't need any light and get by jsut fine on amber lighting from some lamps
All true but a reminder that basic health care, natural foods and a safe environment are out of reach for too many. We have definitely improved on the distribution of foods and even safe environments, but there are insitutional blockages that would go a long way.
Sometimes I think that the truly wealthy and powerful are convinced suffering is necessary lest we devolve into universe 25
foxglacier 3 hours ago [-]
Health care is unbounded. Even the poorest people rarely die from common old diseases like TB and pneumonia, while even the richest people still die from cancer and heart attacks. We have machines that can keep you alive indefinitely without your heart or lungs working, but they're so expensive, we normally just let people die instead. I live in a country with public healthcare and the news is regularly filled with stories of people begging for money to buy treatments that the government decided it can't afford to fund. Some of these don't even do much - eg. a cancer drug that actually shortens your life compared to chemo but has less severe side effects.
mootdentures 4 hours ago [-]
I really loved this, thanks for sharing
palmotea 3 hours ago [-]
Is this a variation of the old "don't fucking complain about the status quo, you have a telescreen, not even the kings of old had a telescreen watching them! How dare you question the titans of industry, whose minion's diligent effort has provided you a telescreen at an affordable price!"?
saithound 1 minutes ago [-]
Having read the article, I can confirm that it is.
fasterik 2 hours ago [-]
That seems like an extrapolation to a pretty extreme conclusion. I don't see anything in the article that says anything like that. It's an appreciation of how much objective standards of living have improved over the past few centuries.
nicebyte 2 hours ago [-]
Sure yeah. propaganda has to be subtle sometimes.
fasterik 2 hours ago [-]
Propaganda for what, exactly?
palmotea 1 hours ago [-]
> Propaganda for what, exactly?
The status quo. Framing things in this way is something I first encountered in libertarian/capitalist propaganda (when I didn't know better and was basically a dogmatic libertarian). The message is basically: people should focus on the goods the status quo provides, instead of the political power, economic security, etc. that it doesn't.
fasterik 1 hours ago [-]
I don't see why pointing out improvements in quality of life is "propaganda for the status quo" or precludes talking about political power and economic security. We can and do talk about both all the time.
lanfeust6 1 hours ago [-]
If you know anything about libertarian cranks, this doesn't make any sense and smacks of projection. They're not "satisfied with the status quo" qua political structure or economy.
There's a value in gratitude and recognizing widespread improvements in QoL, in large part fuelled by growth in the past century, and taking advantage of state capacity. That's not tantamount to saying there are no issues today, let alone that you shouldn't care. You can at least criticize accurately and take things at face value.
palmotea 41 minutes ago [-]
> If you know anything about libertarian cranks, this doesn't make any sense and smacks of projection. They're not "satisfied with the status quo" qua political structure or economy.
I didn't say anything about "libertarian cranks." I've only first (and mainly) seen this line of thought in "libertarian/capitalist propaganda."
And I think you can broadly break that propaganda down into (at least) two broad efforts, with somewhat different goals:
1. Preventing movement from the status quo in a non-libertarian direction. That's where this kind of thing comes in, because it can be used to distract from dissatisfaction.
2. Advocating that the status quo to change in a more libertarian direction.
jjice 2 hours ago [-]
I think there's a middle ground where we can appreciate the great things we have while also striving to continue to get better and not lock ourselves into either constant animosity for "the system" or constant self loathing for not appreciating what we have.
rglover 3 hours ago [-]
Yes. There's (anecdotally) been an increase in "don't look at this mess objectively" type of content being put out lately. Presumably because a chair is about to be removed (or it's just garden variety psychological pressure to force a range of outcomes).
It would seem obvious to anybody who lived in the past that the goal of civilizational progress is to...progress. But in our current era, you're gaslit into feeling guilty for desiring basic things (or any form of enjoyment); all the way down to basic living needs.
It's a shame but there's no argument that you can present to others that won't devolve into either politics, straw man arguments, or just transparent abuse. Best to just ride the tiger and ignore it all as best as you can.
Avicebron 2 hours ago [-]
It's probably better to name and shame and make those responsible aware that everyone else knows they are responsible.
rglover 1 hours ago [-]
Here are a few from just the last six months. Read into it what you will.
I don't know what's worse, people dying of a disease because there is no cure, or people dying of a disease because they can't afford a cure?
not having a vaccine for a deadly disease, or having a vaccine AND a monstrous media machine that will convince millions to not take it?
jplusequalt 3 hours ago [-]
>It is to humanity’s credit that we remain restless in the midst of all of this progress. We continue to look forward, pushing the frontier further with new treatments, new tools, and new institutions that will help future generations in ways we can’t even picture yet.
Abundance truthers ignore that having access to more consumer goods is often orthogonal to happiness ("Hedonic treadmill").
But am I better off for all the trinkets I now have in my home if the alternative could have been better social safety nets, less wealth inequality, less social isolation, lower global emissions, etc.?
drblast 2 hours ago [-]
I often imagine WWIII, as I witness the bombs coming down to destroy everything we've built, wondering, "what conveniences would I give up for this not to be happening?"
And I also realize that this is more than a thought experiment for many people living right now.
A hot shower, air almost 50 degrees cooler than the outside air coming out of my vents, communicating instantly thousands of miles away, it's all so easy to just forget and take for granted
Now I have a great standby generator, though, so I'm sure I'll start taking it all for granted again soon.
The power goes out a lot in the winter but at least we are cozy, particularly with today's LED/Lithium lights.
Back when I had ADSL from the central office my internet would stay up when I lost power so I had enough power to run a cordless phone and one (of two) DSL modems off a small UPS -- so I could keep 21st century comms. Once I got fiber-to-the-node most outages would affect the node so I gave up on the UPS. They're supposed to get FTTH to my house soon but I have no idea how that is going to be affected by outages.
After a few of these outages and typically two to three nines of utility power availability, I got a portable generator for my well (we have an automatic generator for the house, but the well is on a separate meter); but we've also had a well pump fail. That was "fun", I think the well company came out the next day to troubleshoot, and then the 3rd day to replace the pump, which took pretty much all day because of the depth of the well. At least it happened during good weather.
When the power goes out, and you’re forced to sit and talk to people or just enjoy the quiet of the night. I think about how much we’ve lost in the modern rat race.
One of the things that sits with me is that for all we’ve been given, most of us have lost the ability to just sit out in a field and enjoy the stars (light pollution, starlink, etc)
I'm not trying to single you out but I am intensely annoyed by the light and airy disregard of an intensely complex graph of interconnected services that make life possible at the density and quality that we enjoy.
We've lost a great deal less than we've gained, and anyone who doesn't think so has not had the joy of involuntarily going without them for a significant length of time.
We are very fortunate to have clean water and sewage. There are terrible stories in Victorian England of like workers popping in water systems and killing hundreds of people.
Electricity powers a ton of basics and maybe you think you could do without heating and air conditioning until a heat wave passes over Europe and kills hundreds of people. I do think beyond that you start to deal in a lot of tradeoffs. I hate they seemed to have systematically replaced wood burning fireplaces with gas. I moved out of a house with a wood burning fireplace and what a mistake,
Except automated bill pay. I swear I could go back and live in the 70’s if it wasn’t for automated bill pay.
That's the crux, isn't it? You aren't just dependent, you are dependent on a system that relentlessly stalks you with increased demands. You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves.
It's grim and people are correct to behave like it's grim.
>> You are tasked with keeping ahead of a pack of hunters who want to take you down -- and not only will your companions leave you for dead the moment that happens, the group will punish any suggestion that we might want to do something about this on a systemic level because they strive to join the hunters themselves.
...as referring to software engineers as a whole, because it fits.
We're laborers, but a significant fraction of us has misinterpreted having a comfortable salary now as being capitalists themselves, so bought into libertarian propaganda and behave like they're temporarily embarrassed billionaires (for instance, by strongly resisting things like unionization).
Unfortunately, too many of us who are actually interested in "[doing] something about this on a systemic level," are too pampered to have the focus to actually be effective, and get distracted and put all kinds of divisive stuff front-and-center (basically playing into the divide-and-conquer game of the bosses).
The entire county lost power for about 8 hours. From the social media posts, you would have thought people were undergoing severe hardship, because they had to wait 1/3 of a day for their propane-heated showers. Also, some were angry that the county hadn't done more to plan for these situations... which happen maybe once every decade or so.
There is an infinite sequence of future problems to be solved. Each time you solve a problem, you don't reduce the total number of future problems, but you are left with one or more better problems than you had before. It's a very good thing that, as soon as you get accustomed to having air conditioning, you start looking for the next problem to fix.
Hedonic adaptation prevents us from asking "is this worth the downsides, or should we go back to how it was?"
But that's not really what the hedonic treadmill refers to! The hedonic treadmill is referring to the fact that, when a problem is solved, the level of pleasure or happiness individuals experience reportedly quickly returns to the pre-solution baseline.
[0] Crucially, this must not be conflated with advocating a general slowdown or pause on attempts at progress. That's the civilizational death sentence.
I.e. like my grandparents, who grew up in the 1920s on a farm, only 1 heated room, privy outside, no running water, limited food options, hard work each day. As my granny used to say to anyone with nostalgia: no, things were definitely not better back then.
Misery week would greatly increase happiness for the rest of the year, add humility, and empathy with the less privileged.
Looking for water in the wilderness - even with access to maps - can be quite a challenge in and of itself!
but regardless it not going to bring any meaningful humbleness because you will forget all about it.
i grew up in povery for first 20 yrs of my life in a desert but i have never think of that life and experience humbless in any different way than ppl who have never experienced it.
But in the hedonic adaptation sense like - and comparisons are complicated - people aren’t by and large happier now (because of the hedonism this is sidestepping the argument of how well distributed it is, and I’m talking the past 50-100 years not compared to subsistence farming and the like early Industrial Revolution etc et al)
I do think a lot of the senses that things are better now are based on this adaptation, not thinking about would you be less happy if you didn’t know about some of the small things you were missing.
I notice a lot of resistance and discomfort whenever someone says anything like this (“are you suggesting my pain doesn’t matter? How about the starving kids in xyz?”), and I get that. But it feels like there might be something to it.
> "It would seem that human beings are not able to describe, nor perhaps to imagine, happiness except in terms of contrast."
Think about all those elated anecdotes about how someone used an inferior tool for a decade, was fine with it, then tried a better one and now “can’t imagine how I lived without it...” well it’s a bittersweet memory distortion innit.
Being in nature is good for us, so that’s probably part of it, as is the constant practice of being self-reliant.
Another theory is friction. I can’t just roll out of bed to the couch, and back. I don’t have a fixed place to shower, so I swim in a river most days, and usually it’s freezing. Camping alone was terrifying at first, but objectively not that dangerous and not worth worrying about. All these little moments are a chance to exercise that mental muscle to do uncomfortable things.
Modern life is devoid of this friction. I could try to take a cold shower every day, but a not-cold one is just a turn of the wrist away. I could try to make myself go outside a bit every day, but I don’t need to.
This isn’t a new observation, but I can’t believe how stark the contrast is. I’m getting stuff done that I’ve been procrastinating on for years.
your heart knows that you can go back to comfortable modern life whenever you please so you wont really experience the pain that comes from hopelessness which i belive is really needed ingriedient to humble you.
I recall reading a shampoo bottle in the bathroom maybe 25 years ago because there was nothing else to read.
Meanwhile now you are correctly complaining about how weird the scrolling feels like.
At least I never needed JavaScript to read text on a shampoo bottle.
I just finished installing a whole-house filter & softener system and everyone is delighted. I told my kids that once a month we're going to serve untreated well-water with dinner, so we stay grateful for it.
Eventually, the resin will break down and need replacement, or the valve on the tank will fail. But neither of those are insurmountable to fix, and will tend to last many years.
Now, if you go with RO, that's different. Then you really need a pump and multiple filters which need regular changing. Those can be a bit more maintenance. (Not to mention all the wasted water)
Immediate illumination for why people don't quite feel like royalty despite all this would be achieved by replacing the aesthetic of this presentation with mis-matched uncomfortable and ugly furniture picked up off the side of the road, in a cheap split-level or ratty single wide with carpet that should have been replaced a decade ago and fucked-up window blinds et c., a kitchen table piled with a mess of homework and a pile of 20 medical bills and "EOB" letters and crap generated by a single brief visit to a hospital some of which are almost certainly in error and will take hours on the phone to correct, and so on. The presentation is upper-middle-class and comfy as hell. It's an aesthetic that my family is only slowly and haltingly and with much bargain-hunting (even Ikea is kinda spendy, IMO) struggling toward even with top-10% (for the US, let alone globally!) household income, and will never quite achieve because reality doesn't look like that. I know it's not the main point of the site, but the way they've elected to illustrate this notion is interesting in that it suggests a critique of, or elaboration on, the actual main point.
Like, I'm scrolling through this and my thoughts are on how expensive this environment is. I don't have my spices in cute well-sealing matching jars that look nice on a shelf... because that shit's expensive. Mine are mostly stale... because non-stale spices are expensive and take effort and education to track down. Hell some of mine are probably contaminated with heavy metals and I don't know it. Behind all of this is price-anxiety and ambient stress.
The core idea is sound and worth highlighting, but the reality of "so much is available extremely cheap in nearly unlimited quantity and variety! Isn't that fantastically amazing!" is exhausted parents doom-scrolling the Netflix catalog for an hour before going to bed having watched nothing, as they stress about whether their kids' dental appointment tomorrow is going to turn up anything so expensive they have to defer it and scrimp and save to pay for it.
Not really though. The spices at the grocery store are not stale when you buy them, and will not go stale for 1-2 years once opened. If your spices are stale it's because you don't cook very often and you aren't using them up.
Also let's keep in mind that people had even less furniture in the past, and much of it you had to build yourself out of trees you cut down yourself. Healthcare was leeches and dental care was nonexistent. These "basic human rights" were incredible luxuries only a century or two ago.
This may be the load-bearing point of your lament.
But if the question is "why people don't quite feel like royalty despite all this" it's pretty obvious that "doom scrolling" might be a large part of the answer.
It's not hanging, it's levitating. And modern phase-shift technology lets its handlebars sit comfortably inside the wall while still being outside of it.
Ordinary abundance.
----
I used to love pictures like that when I was a kid, someone put effort and care into every inch, so you could explore and find little treasures. Now when I see one, the thing's flimsy and falls apart on inspection.
Sometimes I think that the truly wealthy and powerful are convinced suffering is necessary lest we devolve into universe 25
The status quo. Framing things in this way is something I first encountered in libertarian/capitalist propaganda (when I didn't know better and was basically a dogmatic libertarian). The message is basically: people should focus on the goods the status quo provides, instead of the political power, economic security, etc. that it doesn't.
There's a value in gratitude and recognizing widespread improvements in QoL, in large part fuelled by growth in the past century, and taking advantage of state capacity. That's not tantamount to saying there are no issues today, let alone that you shouldn't care. You can at least criticize accurately and take things at face value.
I didn't say anything about "libertarian cranks." I've only first (and mainly) seen this line of thought in "libertarian/capitalist propaganda."
And I think you can broadly break that propaganda down into (at least) two broad efforts, with somewhat different goals:
1. Preventing movement from the status quo in a non-libertarian direction. That's where this kind of thing comes in, because it can be used to distract from dissatisfaction.
2. Advocating that the status quo to change in a more libertarian direction.
It would seem obvious to anybody who lived in the past that the goal of civilizational progress is to...progress. But in our current era, you're gaslit into feeling guilty for desiring basic things (or any form of enjoyment); all the way down to basic living needs.
It's a shame but there's no argument that you can present to others that won't devolve into either politics, straw man arguments, or just transparent abuse. Best to just ride the tiger and ignore it all as best as you can.
[1] High gas prices and inflation are stressing people out — but the economy will be fine as long as they keep spending. - [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/high-gas-prices-and-inflat...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/high-gas-prices-and-inflat...)
[2] The 'Vibecession' Is Over. The 'Permacession' Is Here. - [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/05/americans-depresse...](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/05/americans-depresse...)
[3] The Economy Is Booming. Why Does It Feel Like a Bust? - [https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-economy-is-boom...](https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-economy-is-boom...)
[4] Why Americans hate the 'good' economy. - [https://www.axios.com/2026/06/25/economy-inflation-democrats...](https://www.axios.com/2026/06/25/economy-inflation-democrats...)
[5] Most Of Us Are Richer Than Ever Before. Why Doesn't It Feel That Way? - [https://www.investopedia.com/most-of-us-are-richer-than-ever...](https://www.investopedia.com/most-of-us-are-richer-than-ever...)
[6] Buying power is up 73%. Why do Americans feel broke? - [https://www.thestreet.com/economy/purchasing-power-in-americ...](https://www.thestreet.com/economy/purchasing-power-in-americ...)
not having a vaccine for a deadly disease, or having a vaccine AND a monstrous media machine that will convince millions to not take it?
Abundance truthers ignore that having access to more consumer goods is often orthogonal to happiness ("Hedonic treadmill").
But am I better off for all the trinkets I now have in my home if the alternative could have been better social safety nets, less wealth inequality, less social isolation, lower global emissions, etc.?
And I also realize that this is more than a thought experiment for many people living right now.